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Principiantes

4.18 of 5 stars 4.18  ·  rating details  ·  718 ratings  ·  64 reviews
Beginners contains Carver's original manuscripts for his classic short-story collection, What We Talk About When We Talk About Love, which his ruthless editor, Gordon Lish, reduced by more than 50 per cent before publication. Fascinating, with some stories weighted entirely differently, the original texts reveal Carver to be a more humane writer than he is usually credited ...more
Paperback, 312 pages
Published May 2010 by Editorial Anagrama (first published January 1st 2008)
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(showing 1-30 of 1,399)
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Cecily
This is the original versions of the stories that were first published as "What We Talk About When We Talk About Love" (http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/...), which I reread alongside this.

Differences: Edited and Unedited

Some of the versions here are more than double the length, and most of them are darker and with more ambiguous endings.

I would like to believe that Carver's words were butchered by an over-zealous editor, and many say that is the case, but I'm not sure that's entirely true.
...more
orsodimondo
MAN ON WIRE
Si vedono cinque stelle, ma è un’illusione: in realtà, qui sopra, c’è il firmamento intero.

Ho letto e riletto questi racconti nel corso degli anni, alcuni anche tre o quattro volte, e ho ritrovato sempre, intero e intatto, l’incanto.
In versione editata oppure originale, small size o full size, strada o gran turismo, naked o con optional, Carver rimane un maestro. Il maestro del racconto.
Di quanti si potrebbe dire la stessa cosa?
Mezzo rigo e sei già dentro la storia; dialoghi inarriva
...more
Fewlas
Estratto della lettera di Raymond Carver al suo editor Gordon Lish del 10 maggio 1980:

”[…]Amico, ti voglio bene. E non è un dichiarazione che faccio a cuor leggero… Cristo santo, non ti far scrupolo a darci sotto con la matita sui racconti se serve a migliorarli; e se c’è qualcuno che può farlo sei solo tu […] Dai pure gas e procedi a tutta birra.”

E fu così che Lish amputò i racconti che poi andranno a comporre la raccolta “Di cosa parliamo quando parliamo d’amore”. Li amputò così tanto che Carv
...more
Ben Winch
First up, it's ridiculous to contrast this unfavourably with What We Talk About When We Talk About Love. These are first drafts - of course they're going to seem unfinished! Secondly, personally I've never bought the line that What We Talk About... was Carver's best book - to me it always seemed the most frustrating. Thirdly, I've read some stories by Gordon Lish - the editor of What We Talk About... - and I wasn't impressed. Glib and cynical, just like the worst of his reworkings of Carver. So ...more
Paul Curd
One thing you soon surmise from reading Raymond Carver is that he was an alcoholic. Carver’s characters tend to drink excessively, and his stories often examine the negative impact of drinking on his central character’s relationships. But nowadays, what we talk about when we talk about Carver is the role of his editor, Gordon Lish.

Carver first met Lish, then the editor of a small press magazine, in 1968. Lish began to heavily edit and publish Carver’s stories and Carver’s reputation grew. He was
...more
Zee
When I picked this up, I didn't look at the author properly. I saw the 'Raymond' and briefly a 'C-er' and just grabbed it thinking it was a gritty detective novel by Chandler. I was disappointed when I got home, however my embarrasing misobservation turned into delight, as I discovery what I could probably call the 'perfect short story'.

Yes, Carver's precision and execution of this much overlooked writing form had me reeling with wonder and envy. Here was finally an author I could enjoy on a rea
...more
Diego
"That morning she pours Teacher's over my belly and licks it off. That afternoon she tries to jump out the window."

Nuff Said.
MvM
Più che l’attenzione al significato del dettaglio, caratterizza Carver la maestria del saper mettere a dimora il significato nel dettaglio (il punto d’arrivo e di svolta, d’attenzione, dell’intera vicenda raccontata); un dettaglio che è l’àncora della vicenda. E’ come camminare lungo una muraglia, per tutto il tempo del racconto, intravedere, immaginare, supporre, ipotizzare ciò che sta dall’altra parte, e trovare ciò di cui la storia ci mette alla ricerca solo in un preciso punto, spesso alla f ...more
Saverio Mariani
Raymond Carver
Principianti
Trad. It. Riccardo Duranti
Einaudi, pp. 290, 12



Nella sua breve esistenza, soli cinquant’anni, Carver ha sofferto moltissimo di crisi alcoliche. Molto tempo lo ha passato in cura, contro l’alcolismo che lo attaccava.

Sorprende, allora, vedere come nei suoi libri (non solo in Principianti) l’alcol, problemi legati ad abuso di alcol e crisi di questo genere, siano molto presenti.
C’è quasi sempre, nei suoi racconti, una bottiglia di qualcosa, rum, gin, vodka… Quasi a vole
...more
Guido
Che lusso, poter leggere una simile raccolta di racconti. Ho letto che Carver riteneva la composizione di un racconto molto simile a quella di una poesia. Una simile spiegazione non sarebbe necessaria, l'espressività della sua prosa lascia senza fiato per la sua purezza: si direbbe che Carver avesse scoperto un modo semplice e sorprendente per fare letteratura, scrivendo soltanto di quello che conosceva, usando il linguaggio più immediato che si può immaginare. Tutto il suo impegno è nella stori ...more
Roberto
Una delle più delicate controversie riguardanti Raymond Carver orbita attorno alla pubblicazione, nel 2008, di questa raccolta.
Principianti è la versione "restaurata" di Di che cosa parliamo quando parliamo d'amore una delle raccolte più amate di Carver.

La controversia nasce dalla scelta dell'editor Gordon Lish di massacrare il testo originale per adattarlo al suo modo di vedere la narrativa. Lish stava lanciando il minimalismo e lo stile di Carver, pare, bene si adattava a portare la bandiera d
...more
Elsa
Estic un pèl empatxada de Carver. Us diré per què. Vaig llegir un llibre seu titulat De què parlem quan parlem de l'amor, un llibre curt de relats amb un estil molt personal i original que em va sorprendre d'allò més per la sequetat i gairebé la brusquedat amb què estan escrits. Quan l'acabava, vaig saber que, de fet, aquell llibre només era la “versió” que l'editor de Carver, Gordon Lish, havia fet del llibre original de Carver, que es titulava Principiants. Aquest llibre és substancialment més ...more
Kelanth, numquam risit ubi dracones vivunt
Raymond Carver morto nel 1988 a soli cinquant’anni è stato uno scrittore, poeta e saggista statunitense.
Fin dalla giovane età si barcamenò tra le più disparate occupazioni, coltivando al tempo stesso una grande passione per la lettura e la scrittura. Carver è stato un maestro della narrativa breve e viene considerato il capostipite del minimalismo letterario americano. Un matrimonio fallito, due figli sfortunati arrivati troppo presto, una lunga battaglia con l’alcol, un’infinità di bancarotte,
...more
Ryan Williams
Something of a dilemma reading this book. On the one hand, I believe the Lish edited version (published as What We Talk About When We Talk About Love) was better.* On the other, I also believe the way those edits were imposed was unprofessional, unethical, and unforgivable. If nothing else, I hope it will remind people that there was a generosity of spirit in Carver's work all along.

*With the exception of the story 'A Small, Good Thing', which Lish butchered into 'The Bath'.
Luciano Losiggio
Muchos de estos cuentos los había leído en su versión recortada. El cambio es grande. El estilo es otro. En los originales Carver desarrolla más. Igual si, el aire se corta con cuchillo en todos los relatos. Los personajes están siempre al borde de la violencia, al borde del desmoronamiento, en el momento justo en que todas las estructuras de la vida empiezan a crujir. Retratos del Crack-up fitzgeraldiano.

La primera vez que leí a Carver, recuerdo que me voló la cabeza. Después, con el tiempo, to
...more
Sururi
Raymond Carver | Beginners ( The manuscript version of "What We Talk About When We Talk About Love") | 20120406 | 3.0*
Why Don't You Dance? : 4.0*
Viewfinder : 2.5*
Where Is Everyone? : 3.0*
Gazebo : 2.5*
Want To See Something? : 2.0*
The Fling : 2.5*
A Small, Good Thing : 3.0*
Tell the Women We're Going : 2.0*
If It Please You : 3.0*
So Much Water So Close to Home : 2.0*
Dummy : 2.0*
Pie : 2.5*
The Calm : 2.5*
Mine: 1.0*
Distance : 4.0*
Beginners : 4.0*
One More Thing : 3.5*
Jenny
I'm blown away by Raymond Carver's stories. Simple, direct language - sufficient detail to capture the moment, mood - with complex impact on my emotions, understanding of life. As I complete a story I cannot quickly turn to the next one. I need time to absorb the impact the story creates within me. Wow what a writer!
Kharen
Encontrar este libro en plena época de parciales puede ser un verdadero desastre, pues como un nuevo amante buscaras tiempo y lugar para estar a solas con el. Te atrapara, te hará reír y llorar, pero suavecito, sin grandes estruendos, porque es un libro así...
de historias alternas y emociones paralelas, de pequeñas vidas cotidianas mostrando la miseria y divinidad humana, y esa pregunta que recorre todo el libro ¿De que hablamos cuando hablamos de amor? es también el titulo de la versión inicial
...more
GONZA
I have to say that I'm delighted that I read this original version of Carver's "What we talk about when we talk about love" because from the critics I've read, there's no really Carver in the edited version. So I love many of these short stories and I suggest to everybody interested to skip the famous book and goes directly to this one.

Devo dire che sono stata fortunata a non leggere il piú famoso "Di cosa parliamo quando parliamo d'amore" che non é altro che la versione rivista e corretta di qu
...more
Héctor Torres
Nada más el cuento que da título al libro bastaría para leerlo. Un libro que muestra al Carver no editado, poseedor de una ternura desconocida en el Carver al que estábamos acostumbrados. Impelable para el que disfruta de este autor.
Consuelo
Lo leo una y otra vez y no puedo dejar de maravillarme. Carver tiene la habilidad de convertir eventos cotidianos en cuentos cortos con una prosa increíble.

Demasiado recomendado. Creo que este es lejos mi libro favorito.
Gloriagloom
Che Dio salvi gli editor e fulmini le prime stesure.
Il Carver diseditato è una fitta al cuore.
B. Mason
I recently did a tandem reading of Beginners and What We Talk About When We Talk About Love. I would highly recommend this analysis to anyone seeking to get a better understanding of Raymond Carver's work and the mechanics of writing and editing short stories. It was illuminating to read some more fleshed out versions of Carver's stories and seeing where Gordon Lish's editing took the stories. There are some stories where the paring down works very well and the "core" of the story is maintained, ...more
Carlos Campos
Principiantes o de qué hablamos cuando hablamos de Carver.

No, la canción de Enrique Bunbury no tiene absolutamente nada que ver con el texto de Carver. Sí, es un conjunto imprescindible de relatos que cualquier amante del género debe abordar, tanto desde la postura de la lectura como desde la creación literaria. Y sí, Birdman (Alejandro G. Iñárritu, 2014) es un excelente pretexto para ingresar al mundo literario de Carver, mas no a la inversa.
Los pretextos de la trama se sustentan en los problem
...more
Marco Freccero
Bill sollevò una mano e come se la distanza che ora li separava meritasse perlomeno questo gesto, cominciò a dare all’altro dei colpetti sulla schiena, a carezzarlo, mentre le lacrime gli sgorgavano dagli occhi.


Nel 1981 esce una raccolta di racconti dal titolo “Di cosa parliamo quando parliamo di amore”. Autore Raymond Carver, editor Gordon Lish.
“Principianti” racchiude (di nuovo), quei racconti nella loro versione originale, senza tagli, solo con le correzioni di Carver e della moglie Tess.

Si
...more
Rob
Beginners is a short story collection by Raymond Carver, published posthumously. Some have called it the “first draft” of his collection of stories, What We Talk About When We Talk About Love, whether or not that is the case, I don’t know. I do know that it is a manuscript of that collection as it was originally submitted to his publisher. WWTAWWTAL fell under the axe of a fierce editor, who removed up to fifty percent of some of the short stories in the collection. People debate whether the edi ...more
Buchdoktor
"Carver sollte man immer im Haus haben." - Ingo Schulze

Vorgeschichte eines gestutzten Buches
Raymond Carvers Wovon wir reden, wenn wir von Liebe reden (Übersetzer Klaus Hoffer 1969 bei Piper, 1990 Volk und Welt, 2000 neu übersetzt von Helmut Frielinghaus für den Berlin Verlag) oder Würdest du bitte endlich still sein, bitte (2000, Frielinghaus, Berlin Verlag), repräsentieren für viele Leser die moderne amerikanische Short Story. "Wovon wir reden" wird durch Ingo Schulzes Vorwort zu einer besonder
...more
Johan Wilbur
Un amigo llevaba ya un tiempo diciéndome que me leyera esta recopilación de relatos. Si bien me gustó ya cuando leí Tres rosas amarillas, esta recopilación de relatos no ha hecho sino confirmarme dos cosas:

Que Carver no fue feliz en su puta vida.
Que Carver quiere que sus lectores no sean felices mientras le leen.

Y yo creía (Iluso de mí) que Carver solo era un traumatizado con los divorcios, pero tras un par de relatos de este libro te das cuenta de que escribía de forma muy muy cojonuda, pero es
...more
j_ay
This will be damn near impossible to tell which version is 'better', as the originally published (however edited) versions are so branded on me...
(after reading)
I have to say I prefer the stories as I first read them. But this may be the same situation as when one sees 'additional scenes' that were deleted from a movie. More often than not the movie seems better off without them.
So it seems.
But if one were to see the movie originally with those scenes left in, more than likely they would not s
...more
Pollyanna Darling
This collection of short stories are the original versions, as penned by Carver, not the massively edited ones published by Gordon Lish, Carver's editor early in his career. They are beautifully written, often disturbing and sometimes depressing. It's interesting to contrast these versions with Lish's edits - they reveal a softness to Carver, a humanity that Lish excised from the story telling.
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7363
Carver was born into a poverty-stricken family at the tail-end of the Depression. The son of a violent alcoholic, he married at 19, started a series of menial jobs and his own career of 'full-time drinking as a serious pursuit'. A career that would eventually kill him. Constantly struggling to support his wife and family Carver enrolled in a writing programme under author John Gardner in 1958 and ...more
More about Raymond Carver...
What We Talk About When We Talk About Love Cathedral Where I'm Calling From: New and Selected Stories Will You Please Be Quiet, Please? Short Cuts: Selected Stories

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“I don't know why, but I suddenly felt a long way away from everybody I had known and loved when I was a girl. I missed people. For a minute I stood there and wished I could get back to that time. Then with my next thought I understood clearly that I couldn't do that. No. But it came to me then that my life did not remotely resemble the life I thought I'd have when I had been young and looking ahead to things.” 7 likes
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