Their behavior, more than anything else in this situation, fits the definition of bullying to a T. These people should be ashamed of themselves, though it's pretty obvious that they have no shame whatsoever.
"Because bullying is not a synonym for argument, disagreement or pejorative reactions. Bullying is not a synonym for disliking someone, or for thinking their work is rubbish. Bullying is not even a synonym for saying so, publicly and repeatedly, in a place where that person can hear it – although that’s certainly unpleasant. Bullying is when someone with a greater position of power and/or possessed of greater strength repeatedly and purposefully attacks, harasses, belittles and/or otherwise undermines someone in a position of lesser power and/or possessed of lesser strength."This, I agree so much. It really irks me when people throws the B-word around in a debate. There's arguing and there's bullying — not the same thing.
I generally agree with the "other side". Certain reviewers continuously bait authors to respond and then jump on their backs when they have different opinions or *gasp* have the audacity to post (even a civil) response. They even attack other users for posting logical arguments that trump their simple trolling and name-calling. "OMG a user posted some common sense, let's remove them from this conversation so they can't influence any of my underlings." They wield the censorship hammer to prevent this from happening.It brings to mind the actions of tyrannical 3rd world dictators who silence everyone who has a different opinion on things, which is extremely strange considering the fact they live in so called "democracies" that champion the individual's right to free speech. You'd think that they'd learn to respect the opinions of others like they want others to do with theirs.
It's nice to see that some people are taking steps to combat this.
I guess to me certain behavior crosses a line on both sides. One of my author friends had a personal acquaintance write a review and accuse her of having weight issues, which was not an issue related to the book. That crossed a line for me. And I think revealing a reviewer's personal information when they've taken steps to not have it available crosses a line.
stopthegrbullies.com:"sparrow"
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hahaha. Yeah, I'm more about the online predators than crappy authors, though I do have a couple of pet vendettas.
I suppose it's unfortunate for an author to feel so bad about the state of things that they quit writing, but seriously--have these people been on the internet before? If an author is so fragile that they can't read criticism without losing the will to write, then why seek out reviews?Some people aren't going to like what you write, and when that happens, they will write negative reviews. They might swear or be flippant or degrade your skills, but none of those things are personal attacks. Critics do not seek authors out and force them to read reviews, because reviews aren't for authors, they are for the reviewer and their followers.
If you have to deliberately go out of your way to find the negative words, then that isn't bullying. However, if you post someone's personal information and wage a campaign of harassment against an individual, that is definitely bullying.
Keely wrote: "If you have to deliberately go out of your way to find the negative words, then that isn't bullying. However, if you post someone's personal information and wage a campaign of harassment against an individual, that is definitely bullying."It's sadly ironic that that website uses anonymous names and names people they consider bullies.
Jonathan wrote: It's sadly ironic that that website uses anonymous names and names people they consider bullies."It's called the internet. It's pretty much synonymous with anonymity. If we all wanted people to know our real identities, we would have added them on facebook (assuming the profile there is the real deal).
I write reviews meant for those that would consume the books I read. Despite the opinion of people close to me, I do not indulge in Author Cheerleading. Even if it is a close friend of mine, the book must at least be passable for me to mark it up a little more than it is worth. If I couldn't write honest reviews... that would take a lot of the worth of GoodReads away for me. I value the honesty and breadth of reviews I can find on here. Although I do occasionally get nervous when I post a review with specific contentions on a book who's author is active on this site.
Lord Nouda wrote: "Jonathan wrote: It's sadly ironic that that website uses anonymous names and names people they consider bullies."It's called the internet. It's pretty much synonymous with anonymity. If we all wa..."
That's my point. Why then go out and publicly name such other people if you're not willing to show your own face truly? That's why it's ironic.
Josephine wrote: "Although I do occasionally get nervous when I post a review with specific contentions on a book who's author is active on this site."And this exactly what annoys me about hypocritical behavior behind bloggers like these. Reviewers don't need to be quiet because they're afraid of the repercussions honesty might bring. If an author wants to put their work out there for people to read, they get to put their big boy or girl pants on and accept that not everybody will like their work. Writers shouldn't (and don't) need shady websites attempting to shame and intimidate people into having the same opinion.
Lord Nouda wrote: "They even attack other users for posting logical arguments that trump their simple trolling and name-calling..."You mean they argue with someone who disagrees with them? You've got to be kidding me!
"'OMG a user posted some common sense, let's remove them from this conversation so they can't influence any of my underlings.' They wield the censorship hammer to prevent this from happening."Wait. You mean to tell me that they actually exercise the right to moderate posts on their own reviews??! By god, what is this world coming to.
"It brings to mind the actions of tyrannical 3rd world dictators who silence everyone who has a different opinion on things..."You cannot possibly be serious about this statement. You are now comparing Goodreads to North Korea. Are you on drugs?
"It's nice to see that some people are taking steps to combat this."And if by combat you mean attack personally, then yeah you're right that's exactly what's happening, but no no NO it is really not acceptable at all.
Look, I don't even know Kat Kennedy but she has every right to state her opinion about a book—positive or negative—on an opinion forum. And I've even read some of these "harsh reviews" and they are refreshingly honest...about the book. Nowhere does she attack the author's character and make ad hominem statements about how he/she is a drunk who ignores her kids. Seriously, get some perspective.
Keely wrote: "I suppose it's unfortunate for an author to feel so bad about the state of things that they quit writing, but seriously--have these people been on the internet before? If an author is so fragile th..."The author they're referencing is Cyn Byorg (or some such spelling). She quit, decided not to quit, and the entire time she had a book coming out that was not delayed in production in the least.
The conflict Cyn had with reviewers was about a blog post she wrote indicating anything less than a five star ranking was a grievous insult that may hurt your career some day if you want to be a writer because people will know you didn't have a life changing experience when you read their book! oh the scandal. There was more too it, but as far as I know it more or less ended with people listing her books as no-reads. People let her know how they felt about her stance, she locked down the thread, and the world went back to ignoring the C- ish list author.
Jason wrote: "Lord Nouda wrote: "They even attack other users for posting logical arguments that trump their simple trolling and name-calling..."You mean they argue with someone who disagrees with them? You've..."
Jason, you took the words right out of my mouth. Exactly what you said back to this person, who apparently thinks that 3rd world dictators like Saddam Hussein and Kim Il Jong are comparable to honest and witty book reviewers. I have yet to read a review from Kat Kennedy in which she attacks the author personally - I've only ever seen her discuss the book she was reviewing.
Lord Gouda or whatever your name is - please read over your comment again. Your agreement with a site created by bullies complaining about bullies notwithstanding, I would prefer you refrain from calling Goodreads reviewers and bloggers 3rd world dictators, m'kay?
Jason wrote: "And sorry for sounding harsh but somebody was wrong on the Internet and it needed to be addressed."
Arthur wrote: "Who's been bullyin' you, lil' E?LEMME AT 'EM!!!"
Nobody, she's talking about bully-bullies... Kinda but not really. IDK, you gotta read it dude.
Etienne wrote: "you gotta read it dude."Yeah, I got it man ;-)
Personally, I ain't got time for bullies or bully-bullies. If someone disagrees with me, that's fine - provided they're respectful. If I disagree with them, that's fine too - provided I'm respectful in turn.
I do realize that "respectful" comments are generally hard to come by online these days, for all sorts of petty and asinine reasons, but I don't think I've ever encountered more of them in one place than here on GR.
Muthafuckas gotsta CHILL on both sides, but if they'd rather duke it out instead, let 'em - I'll be doing something more productive.
Lord Nouda wrote: "I generally agree with the "other side". Certain reviewers continuously bait authors to respond and then jump on their backs when they have different opinions or *gasp* have the audacity to post (e..."But that is exactly what theses people are doing on their own site! They're complaining that they're being targeted by cyberstalkers, so they're stalking the people and posting private information on-line; they're complaining that the reviews are being manipulated by sock puppets and that's why they're stripping these people's anonymity, but they, themselves are hiding being fake names; they claim they're being attacked in forums and not allowed to speak their piece, but they refuse to approve comments that don't agree with them 100% (I've posted there twice, saying essentially "there are problems on both sides, but the solution isn't to do as they do but to take the high road" and neither were approved); they complain the reviewers aren't following the ToS yet they are blatantly ignoring it themselves by invading the privacy of other users. This whole thing needs to STOP and they all need to grow up, but these "Stop GR Bullying" people are NOT the victims here.
I think it's interesting that it's mostly women doing this to other women----and the writer side of it is represented by a lot of authors doing macho man/doormat heroine type of crap. Women are supposed to be nice, ya see, and those awful reviewers are being snarky. I bet if it was male reviewers the writers would nod silently, take the advice, and rewrite everything. The reviewers are being judged by the code of Girl Niceness, because apparently there's only two speeds for women these days, as decided by other women: Nice or Bitch Who Asked to be Stalked Cuz She was Mean. These are supposedly adult women.
Ginmar wrote: "These are supposedly adult women. "Unfortunately, adult women are often the worst perpetrators of sexism. I'm not saying this whole writer vs. reviewer debacle is motivated by sexism alone, but you're definitely right that these attacks have a very specific slant.
Accusing Kat of being a lazy wife and incompetent mother is a specific kind of insult, whereas if this blog picked a male reviewer and accused him of drinking too much, the general reaction would probably be, "so what?" There's an implication here that Kat is failing her intrinsic duty as Wife and Mother by blogging about books at all, and she should be off making dinner and doing laundry instead.
Yeah, I'm reminded of this woman I worked with. I got mugged pretty badly on the way to work one day----knocked unconscious, teeth knocked out, black eyes----and the manager on duty was one of these types. (I had a boyfriend who was ten years younger than me, no kids, and so on. The manager had taken that traditional route and she let me know she disapproved of my...well, freedom, basically.) Her response when I called in sick, due to the fact my hands and knuckles were all busted up from fighting back? "Well, no wonder you got mugged."
These 'writers' are very quick to slut shame over and over in their books and in their comments to reviewers and readers. The reviewers are the ones, interestingly enough, who point this stuff out in the first place, after which the writers dish out more of it.
Plus how many of these writers are writing pure Mary Sues? That explains a lot.
For the truth about how Kat Kennedy cares for her children while she's busy blogging:http://cuddlebuggery.com/2012/07/kat-...
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(best post ever!)
Her response when I called in sick, due to the fact my hands and knuckles were all busted up from fighting back? "Well, no wonder you got mugged." Ugh, awful! But sadly not a huge surprise. I hope you don't work with her anymore, Ginmar.
Ginmar wrote: "Yeah, I'm reminded of this woman I worked with. I got mugged pretty badly on the way to work one day----knocked unconscious, teeth knocked out, black eyes----and the manager on duty was one of thes..."That is sincerely fucked up. What the hell is wrong with some people?
I had been scheduled to work with food that day. My knuckles still have scars on them to this day from where I hit him, apparently, in the mouth and cut my hands open on his teeth. And the human mouth is extraordinarily dirty. Plus the black eyes. This would be in public, and one thing I learned in the wake of that attack was that if you were bloody but unbowed in public (and female) people assumed you asked for it. I got the most curious response from people; nobody assumed I was a crime victim. They all assumed I was some stupid cow in a violent relationship that I was too stupid to leave, and ergo, I deserved it. They made that very clear. That was on top of the witnesses explaining the cops why they didn't intervene: "We thought it was her boyfriend." To be in a relationship with a woman, apparently, is to beat her up, because women are so infuriating. Or something. As for her? I'd been simmering for a while---she kept telling me I should get married, that my standards were too high, that I was too blunt, that I was too outspoken, and so on, and obviously she felt that my getting mugged was proof that she was right about me. I told her a few things that I'd been saving up for a while---we were almost exactly the same age, for example, but she was a Good Girl and I was obviously a Bad One. I quit on the spot. My injuries healed and hers were mostly self-inflicted, so I bet she's still working that kind of a job. She reminded me of Emenem's mom in Eight Mile.
Well, of course, if I did something wrong and that happened to me, then all she had to do was not be me and not do the shit I did, right? Standard. It made her feel so much better for not rebelling against anything the way she constantly snipped at me for doing. The only cost was to try and destroy someone. If I'd been someone different, I can't imagine how crushed I would have been.
Katy wrote: But that is exactly what theses people are doing on their own site! They're complaining that they're being targeted by cyberstalkers, so they're stalking the people and posting private information on-line;
Uhhh...no. We don't actually know who these "people" are. They haven't been complaining about being stalked themselves. They're highlighting the fact that certain GR members are harassing authors. Get your facts straight.
This whole thing needs to STOP and they all need to grow up, but these "Stop GR Bullying" people are NOT the victims here.
Obviously not. They're more like activists trying to stop the harassment culture on Goodreads. You don't need to personally experience the bullying in order to support the cause against it.
Sandra wrote: "Jason wrote: "And sorry for sounding harsh but somebody was wrong on the Internet and it needed to be addressed."
Someone posted an actual opinion that conflicted with yours? Quick, call the internet police! OR better yet, let's censor them!
Sandra wrote: "
Lord Gouda or whatever your name is - please read over your comment again. Your agreement with a site created by bullies complaining about bullies notwithstanding, I would prefer you refrain from calling Goodreads reviewers and bloggers 3rd world dictators, m'kay?
"
Awwww... more petty name calling? How cute. Keep supplying the lulz though, I could use the laughs.
Lord Nouda wrote: "Katy wrote: But that is exactly what theses people are doing on their own site! They're complaining that they're being targeted by cyberstalkers, so they're stalking the people and posting private..."
To be strictly accurate, what they're doing is highlighting what they perceive as harassment AND posting the personal information and RL locations of the perceived harassers online.
Lord Nouda wrote: "They're highlighting the fact that certain GR members are harassing authors [...] They're more like activists trying to stop the harassment culture on Goodreads"How exactly does a bad review equate to harassment? When your feelings have been hurt by a bad review, does that automatically mean you've been harassed, or does it mean that you might need to grow a thicker skin? In any case, it would probably be much more productive to hone your craft a bit more before releasing it into the wild, where precious author sensibilities aren't considered quite so precious by the larger reading community.
Arthur wrote: "Lord Nouda wrote: "They're highlighting the fact that certain GR members are harassing authors [...] They're more like activists trying to stop the harassment culture on Goodreads"How exactly doe..."
You're clearly missing the point when you post something this misguided. You should re-read everything (and I don't just mean my post alone).
Certain Goodreads members are not harassing authors. Some authors have been having temper tantrums over bad reviews and now they're stalking reviewers. Get your facts straight, because all you're doing now is making excuses for these people.You're defending these people. You're entitled to your own opinion----but not to have it treated as a fact. And what you present is not the facts.
To introduce a whole new level to this weirdly tilted thread, has anyone noticed on the "StoptheGRbullies" site the left sidebar of "We Recommend" titles?Has anyone piped the fact that at least one of these titles is The Raie'Chaelia by one Melissa Douthit, Tantrum Tosser Extraordinaire, subject of a two-hundred-post long review thread moderated by Jim?
Permaybehaps this delicate little ogre is out trolling for mean, mean reviewers. It would make sense to me if she was at least one of the people who was involved with the site, though I have no evidence of this other than moral certainty.
And, as a side note, Arthur who posted above still speaks to *me* civilly even though I called his book Editorial: Bizarro Press Edition some very nasty and critical names and even publicly questioned his manliness.
Just sayin'
Happy news everyone. The banners promoting anti-bullying organizations "Stop the GR Bullies" website recently displayed has all been taken down. http://www.anti-bullyingalliance.org.uk, http://www.bullying.org, http://projectantibully.com do not endorse or support in any way the "Stop the GR Bullies" website.Proof: http://twitter.com/ABAonline/status/2..., http://twitter.com/Bullying_org/statu..., http://twitter.com/Proj_AntiBully/sta...
When three anti-bullying organizations are against the "Stop the GR Bullies" website, the argument that the "Stop the GR Bullies" are bullies themselves is very compelling.
Richard wrote: "Arthur who posted above still speaks to *me* civilly even though I called his book [...] some very nasty and critical names and even publicly questioned his manliness."'twould be difficult indeed to stoop me to such depths, friend. I'm not sure if that makes you a bad bully or me a good sport, but either way I still love you ;-)
Grrr!--"some of what they say is actually libelous" Too right! So if we don't like what people have to say about our books we have the right to make disgusting comments about them? Shame!! And how DARE they comment on her as a mother! Grr, grr, grr! Excuse me while I go and get this bad taste out of my mouth.
Georgina wrote: "Grrr!--"some of what they say is actually libelous" Too right! So if we don't like what people have to say about our books we have the right to make disgusting comments about them? Shame!! And how ..."This will help you: http://www.goodreads.com/user_status/...
Arthur wrote: "'twould be difficult indeed to stoop me to such depths, friend. I'm not sure if that makes you a bad bully or me a good sport, but either way I still love you ;-)"More people would do well to take your attitude towards those critical of their works. *smooch*
Arthur wrote: "Etienne wrote: "you gotta read it dude."Yeah, I got it man ;-)
Personally, I ain't got time for bullies or bully-bullies. If someone disagrees with me, that's fine - provided they're respectful...."
"Muthafuckas gotsta CHILL on both sides, but if they'd rather duke it out instead, let 'em - I'll be doing something more productive."
LOL! Perfect comment, although it'll be hard for me to tackle the "doing something more productive," part.









Amazon does it differently by reviewing each submission, so they effectively take on more liability, but I think facebook is more similar to goodreads. George Takei had a post about some of his content being deleted by facebook, so I looked into it a little bit, and it looked like they have a similar system of user-initiated review, though I could be wrong about that. That makes sense to me because it makes their management more passive, so less liability.
ANYWAY, this is a difficult topic, and I like what you said about it a lot. I am kind of a broken record about this, but I think it's easy for both sides, authors and reviewers, to claim the other can't understand the tragedy of their own side, and that the other side has all the power. That seems kind of needlessly dramatic to me because reviewers experience personalized hateful comments, just like authors do, so it doesn't seem fair for an author to say reviewers can't understand what that's like. And, conversely, even though it usually seems like authors have more industry connections and influence, I think it is easy for reviewers to hide behind the idea that all publicity is good publicity for an author, when that doesn't really excuse personal attacks on anybody.